The Business Of
By Josh Moir
An Interview with the man who created ERC-20 and is now hoping to empower a new creative economy with his project LUKSO.
The Business Of Interview Series
28th January 2021, 20:00 GMT
We’d like to begin at the start, you began learning & studying web technologies at the age of 14, what made you become interested in coding & technology at this age?
I went from LEGO to building website, as it was equally fun and versatile. I then build lots of website that’s helped my to learn coding as well as design skills. My interest was always to make things intuitive and easy to use.
How did you become aware of Bitcoin & what was it about the blockchain space that captured your interest?
I heard about Bitcoin in March 2013 and it totally captured my interest, as it was such a new and foreign concept at the time.
It was also before any of the altcoins - the alternative bitcoins came out, which allowed me to be part of this evolution right from the start.
How did you become involved with Ethereum?
Ethereum came to berlin and I got to know some of them. When they were ready to hire, I took the chance to talk to them, as I knew they needed someone with the skills of building full webapps - that we later called "dApps" to show what can be done with Ethereum.
What was your thought process and the story behind creating ERC-20?
When vitalik published the first draft of some smart contract standards in the Wiki of Ethereum, I thought we needed a better platform to discuss such topics. Luckily at the time Martin Becze started the EIP repository, which I found was the perfect place for that. So I called it Ethereum Request for Comment (ERC) and created an issue, the issue number 20.
This started the smart contract standardisation wave and also ICOs. ERC20 filled a need at the time, the need for tokens.
This is still holding up today, even though I thought more standards for other things than tokens are needed at the time.
We are getting there and with ERC725, we have a standard for on-chain public/pseudonymous accounts, that will usher in a new wave of Blockchain usability.
Ok, so then going on to ERC-725, was it during the development of this that you began to see the potential of the fashion industry and the creative economy space and then that sort of unifying with blockchain based identity?
Actually, ERC-725 is something that..., so ERC-20, I proposed in November 2015 and ERC-725 is the standard obviously. Seven hundred and five proposals later. Yeah, that was in I think October 2017. And at the time there was a lot of this discussion about identity on the blockchain. And mostly this identity is related to, hey, you know, we need somehow identity because of KYC and because of personal data, blah, blah, blah. And couldn't we use blockchain for that? At the same time, these discussions were mostly about private identities, how you create privacy, and you can use Blockchain for it. Turns out that it's actually pretty tricky to do private identity on the blockchain, because these two things don't really go directly together, right? Blockchain is a public infrastructure. You see all the transactions. It's so numerous to some degree anonymous because you don't know who is behind the address, but that's your personal data in some kind of verifiable way. It's a tricky, tricky thing and still a tricky thing today. But I saw the need for actually having a smart basic account system that can replace the way of how we were doing things currently. For example, currently we always use private keys for everything which cannot have information and they cannot have a upgrade of security.
You create the key, you store your assets and that's it. And if you want to change the key, you have to move all the stuff and all the assets to another address. 725 was actually about creating these smart contract-based accounts, and today in retrospective, it allows very well public profiles. And the interesting thing is that public profiles are still not really discussed as like the most important thing that blockchain can deliver today. Because having a public profile, that’s based on a smart contract gives us a few things, it gives us verifiability and that's especially important when it's about creative people or companies, organizations or public personas in some form. And it gives us the ability to own things and interact with things on the blockchain. And on top of that, it gives us a complete different user experience where it's not about, hey, you know, start this app and write down 12 words. But it starts out with hey here's this app, and then over time, you can increase security because your stuff doesn't sit on a key anymore. It sits now on a smart contract that can change its owner and can change the keys that controls it. So it completely lets us rethink.
How all of this on changing direction can work and so on, and I think this is I mean, it became kind of clear to me at the time and I actually expected other projects like Uport and so on to come forward and propose these standards. They chose to go another route. So I kind of had to search I need to propose a standard like this, and I did and it was hovering for a while, there's some tracks around. It is an alliance that someone formed and a bunch of people subscribed, but ERC 725 is still totally underutilized because I think most people don't fully understand it and they don't fully understand its potential. And that's actually great for me because now with LUKSO, the project I'm working on since 2018, that's something that we can actually show and do and use. And it's the backbone is the essence of making this new future user economy work where the person doesn't have to be a nerd or a super interested investor. But it can be the normal person from social media and from the Internet today. Whilst giving them the exact same powers that everybody else has using blockchain.
Yes, so then could you sort of give a brief overview of how you would sum up what LUKSO is and could you explain what was it specifically that sort of attracted you to try and unite, I guess, the creative economy, the fashion industry, things like this and this block chain based identity together.
So LUKSO basically is it's own network, it's its own network that functionally works very similar to Ethereum. So this means if you have a smart contract or a system that runs on this program, it will very likely run on LUKSO as well. But it's a new network and it's a network that is more advanced than the current ETH 1 chain. It actually will use a part of the Ethereum 2 tech, but it is actually a network made for complete different set of use cases. So if you currently look at Ethereum and most other blockchains, they're all trying to revolve around, what's the latest trend driving the latest trend? Right now it's DEFI, so everybody makes DEFI. But that's not really you know, that's not really evolving this on a on a core level. And like I said before, initially I thought there would be no Token. It's one standard and there would be a few other building block pieces. But if you really look back, except that we evolved a lot on tokens and we evolved a lot unlike, you know, protocols on top of tokens. The second biggest pillar identity and accounts. And your profile hasn't really evolved much and it hasn't really been a standard that, like people say, hey, that makes sense and this is useful and that's what we need. And I hope to do this with ERC 725, actually. So LUKSO is meant for use cases that are more interesting to ordinary people that know how to use Instagram, know how to use the normal Internet, where it's not primarily about creating a token and making it go up in value or creating an NFT just for reselling it.
But to create things that allow this new creative economy to evolve, where it's about connecting the creative people and also their followers and allow them to create new communities within the Internet that are somehow bound to new ways like tokens or like the protocols that run on top of the creations that people do so. And one of the most core building blocks to make any of this happen is identity. You need public profiles. You need verifiable public profiles. That can create assets, that can deploy smart contracts, that can do all of these things, but it can be fully verified, and it can be fully verified on the blockchain. And just as an example, if you look at Ethereum and the NFT space today, you have a few marketplaces, Rarible and Opensea and a few others. But there's no real identity system behind that, so you basically connect to your key to Opensea or Rarible or SuperRare, and then you create a profile. At the moment, if SuperRares website goes down, your identity ceases to exist because if you look at the blockchain, it's just a random account that created that NFT, while an exact other account, could also come and create the same NFTE. And you have no idea anymore what is the real thing. Except that you could look OK, this guy was earlier, so probably this is the right one and this is not.
But there's no verifiability, there's no identification on the chain level, and that's what 725 changes. So Lukso, in a nutshell, is a new network for this new kind of use cases where this sort of things that we are building and we have in mind people will build. We actually wrote a 180 page white paper explaining that new creative economy. And we see a lot of other projects, NFT Projects and projects that are new who literally copy our white paper and copy these ideas, which is great because it actually allows this economy and the ecosystem to become a real thing that we just thought out a few years ago. But the idea is to create this network, we build applications initially that will show people what can be done and then others come in and build these things as well. And we have a lot of connections and we bring the old world in as well and connect real fashion brands and real people and real companies to use the technology that are not primarily coming out of the block space or out of the trading space or out of the tech space. Right. We're basically marrying these two technologies because we know how the tech works. We know what standards we need and we have to connect to this other world, and that's kind of like a very interesting, very fascinating fusion. That I think will in the next few years, create complete different adoption level and interest in this technology.
Yes, so I mean, LUKSO really has a very wide array of potential uses as displayed in the white paper, the many use cases. Do you have sort of a strategy to promote the adoption of LUKSO in general? And are you going to be focused on certain areas of adoption within what you termed the digital lifestyle because of just how wide the uses are, really?
Yeah, so we have I mean, there's a few things we do with the fashion industry and the fashion industry is interesting because it's the place that creates a lot of the creativity in the world. It's also very abstract to most people. And also literally everybody dresses in some form or another. So it's really touches literally everybody while having this creativity. And we just announced actually an adviser, he was the right hand of Karl Lagerfeld worked for 30 years in Chanel. And he's now super happy to be on this cutting edge project and help with this, you know, perspective of being the director of image at Chanel to this kind of new digital world based on Blockchain and tech. So the initial use cases and the thing is, if you want to create such an ecosystem and that was exactly the same case with Ethereum. You have to not only provide the tech and say, hey, look here, send ABC and the network and go to something, but you also have to show what can be done and how it can be done. And in Ethereum, this was the Mist Browser. This was the first Web three browser, and it was the Ethereum wallet and the first dApps that we build and that then developers could look at and see, oh, this is how it's done and cool, they can do this or I can do, you know, this other thing. And that led to this explosion we see today in the Blockchain space full of thousands of these dApps and protocols and whatnot. So the same thing has to happen here in this new digital lifestyle space and one of the use cases, we identified that especially.
First thing is digital fashion, purely digital fashion, and that's already a very mind bending idea and concept. So from a crypto perspective, digital fashion is through the NFT's that actually have a function and a use. That's something that's very open and interoperable and could have all kinds of users from like they are wearing, to virtual dressing yourself in VR, to using it in games and dressing your avatar. Or really just the social media experience where you take photos, you know, and you wear it, so that's already a lot of fun things you could do with that. But at the same time, it merges these two worlds that haven't really touched at all, which is fashion and gaming and blockchain or fashion and blockchain on a complete new creative level. And this combination, I think, is really powerful, and I believe or we believe that this would create a complete new trillion-dollar market. And if you just look at games like Fortnite that have made billions in the last two years by just selling 3D items, it simply shows there's a desire to be unique and to be outstanding and creative and especially within this virtual world and that virtual world is massively growing because of things like VR and because of things like AR in a few years when we have really good glasses that can literally augment the whole environment around you. So, there's a lot of things in this space coming and digital fashion.
It’s already heavily discussed in the fashion world, it and that's really cool. It actually confuses both sides. It confuses the blockchain people as much as it confuses the fashion people. But at the same time, something that super talked about and now a lot of these creative people come up and they create all of these things. And now it's like almost like cypherpunk, this new cypherpunk evolution where we see all of these people creating this crazy stuff when the 3D thing and you can do with digital fashion like far more than you can do with a physical fashion item. Right. You cannot make fabric hover or easily glow, but you can easily do that in 3D. So obviously, this is a very big endeavour. So it's about defining the standards for the person the public profiles. It's about creating new NFT standards that are far more flexible than the one we have. We have also done that. But it's also about building the pipeline from a fashion designer who creates something in 3D, for example, to something that can live in different games and that can live in different applications. So there's a lot of things that we are working on to make all of these pieces come together. And then we showcase in some apps that we are building and then others come in and build the same things or build similar things or build better things. But it's important that we all have the common building blocks that we use in order to create this economy.
Yes, so another unique thing about LUKSO is that you're conducting a reversible ICO, so could you explain to our listeners and our viewers what is a irreversible ICO? And why are you holding one for LUKSO as opposed to a traditional ICO?
Yes, so first off, why ICO at all, I mean, we have a network, it's a new network, it's similar to Ethereum, but it's also different. It's more similar to Ethereum 2.0. But, you know, every network, if it's decentralized, needs a token because that's the only thing that secures this network. So that's the reason why we have an ICO, why a reversible ICO. Because, I mean, my work probably somehow initiated this ICO wave and we also have seen a lot of the bad and the ugly in the ICO space, and I didn't want it to come just and make another ICO, because a lot of the metrics and other things in the ICO world are broken. And I also want to use a reversible ICO as a way to show we can do different, we can do it better. And actually that also hopefully will move this space forward to a more sustainable and more fair fundraising that actually pushes people towards and especially regulators towards seeing blockchain as a tool which can create safety, rather than something that they want to demonize and say, oh, my God, we need ten thousand regulations on paper because it's so, so, so scary, you know? And so in a nutshell, the reversible ICO is like an ICO. You send Ether to a smart contract and you get tokens back.
The difference in the reversible ICO is you actually send Ether to a smart contract to reserve a certain amount of tokens that you then buy automatically over time. With the ability that during that time, which is for us was eight months and it's running out very soon during that eight months or whenever you come in, you can actually send your reserve tokens back to the smart contract. You cannot move them. You cannot do anything with them besides sending them back to a smarty contract to receive your ether back. So basically, you could think of it like buying overtime, just automated with the ability that you can always decide, hey, you know, project doesn't work or I need my ether or whatever else, and you can now reverse that decision without that you are dependent on market fluctuation because what you get back is the ether, exactly the amount you put them in for those reserve token that you return and not like some kind of action or whatever market price itself. So this concept, in my opinion, solves a few problems. It solves the locking problem. So people rushing into ICO's and then scrolling down the website and realizing, oh, that's not what I wanted to buy.
And it solves a lot of the investor protection problems that regulators would like to see because how better than you having time to rethink your decision and reversing your decision with zero loss. Then trying to have some kind of security law or whatever other regulation that may give you back your money five years in the future after it was all spent on lawyers and on a bankruptcy process, a.k.a. Mt. Gox. No. So this is the reality we are in, you know. So paper laws are in that case, it does not make any sense because it does not protect anybody because you anyway get nothing. But here you can get something. And on the other hand, it's it makes it creates more responsibility from the project as well. And it actually prevents scams because if the project was a scam, they would have to do it for like 10,3,4,5,12, whatever months they choose. And it gives you as a as a buyer like the security to see, OK, you know, I have X amount of time to revert my decision. So if they mess up, if they buy lambos you know, I can at least get a portion back. So, yes, we did this as an experiment and obviously, we did that at the time where the market was really low.
So basically, when we started the reversible ICO, the market was pretty low and therefore like getting people at the time, everybody was kind of like interested in keeping their Ether safe, everything is going down and so on. So it was pretty slow in the beginning. But now over the whole period of time, we have 40 percent of all the tokens we want to sell sold. You know, it's a substantial amount of money, seven million dollars or something of this. And we still have a month to go, so there's still time, and I do think there will be kind of like a hockey stick curve, because what we will see now is exactly this. I see a FOMO kicking in, right? Because once it's over, it's over. This is now the moment to buy into this network. So probably everybody comes in the last minute, but then they have to KYC and do all of these things. So it would be a bit of a stressful thing because without KYC you're not in. But all in all, I would call it a success if you would have launched it in, I guess, in the high times of the ICO wave, it would have been sold out, like instantly. And the interesting thing is also we saw a lot of people going in and out. Most of the fluctuation happened because they see the market prices. They look on KuCoin to see what the trading price. And then they see that they obviously tried to get the better deals or sometimes KuCoin is the better deals. And that the reversible ICO is the better deal. And that's why you saw this fluctuation ongoing. But all in all, it does work, you know, it really gives people far more safety and far better options than simply an ICO itself and the system works. And it worked actually flawlessly so far. And it's really it's amazing to see this and it's amazing that there actually is a good thing.
I just wanted to add this, obviously, it could have sold out already in the early days, but I think the market conditions were not right. And also we have a project that is, you know, we are going for the next wave of things. We are going for the next big thing. And that's not always obvious in the early days. I mean, for example, everybody thinks our DEFI the biggest thing to do. And this is like the trend, blah, blah, blah, blah. But DEFI is cool, but maybe next year is completely boring because the margins went down to actually what it should be, which is very small percentages. And we have now super cool protocols and super new techniques, but are not like wow anymore as they were in the first few months of, let's say, this year, for example. But while and NFT's and this new creative economy and the actually making ordinary users use blockchain, that's the next wave, that's the way it has to go in order to adopt mainstream.
Yes, and then so part of Lukso is this cultural Currencies, I believe, and they have a very, very large scalability. Could you explain to our viewers what are these cultural currencies? And, you know, how do you plan to have people start using this feature?
So cultural currencies and this actually brings me back to a lot of the tokenization we have seen, I mean, everything in Tokens right now is like a. a token X, Y, C, it needs to have a monetary value. And then somehow I would try to increase his monetary value by creating limitations, to the protocol or making a cool app or whatever. Um, what I think the next big wave of tokens will be around tokens that are not necessarily monetary first. So that's the concept of cultural currency. So you could, for example, have a token that's not something you buy and sell, but something you only earn. Let's say, you know, let's make an example of the green wave. You know, you can have a token that you receive when you collect trash on the on the beach. And this token can become somehow the medium of either reputation, but also of exchange within that community that is really caring about sustainability and plastic in the oceans and so on and so on.
That token now, because it binds this group of people together, could now be interesting to a brand that wants to support this endeavours, or it can be interesting to another group of people that somehow do similar things.
And it's connected to and suddenly these cultural currencies. They function as almost like a trend meter that shows you what people are interested in and what they're participating in, this can mean they can become value in terms of money because people may or very likely will start trading at some point against something. And then the metrics that are created and you can start to measure what is more interesting with the interest of the people. Which brand is right now more interesting it allows for completely new concepts of self funding and then creating a brand or creating a creative group or an art collective out of thin air.
It's almost like an equivalent to sort of ruther what is currently likes and comments and things like this on social media?
Exactly with the difference is, that it's decentralized, that it's something that does not exist on one platform that exists across the Internet. And it can be shown as a metric, you know, on many, for example, your stock portfolio in the future will not be limited to Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatever, which currently shows how these guys are into altcoins, or into this or that, but actually it would be maybe Chanel, it maybe a new creative, a new designer collective, it might be a token like, you know, collect trash in the Ocean Token that somehow has its own product and whatnot. These kind of things will show, OK, that person is interested in more sustainability and he's also interested into an Adidas and into channel. That gives you a very different impression of what that person. Persons interests are just by looking at the top five coins you hold, he might have not even bought them, he might have collected them, might have earned them by participating in an event or participating in whatever social or digital actions. So it's a complete different way of how we can interact with each other and its platform, its platform independent. It's not a Facebook like where Facebook deletes the posts and all likes gone and there will be a lot of reputation systems. They will be built on tokens that will come on top of that. I have some ideas of how to build that and I would like to try that out as well. But first, it's the profiles that we have now.
So there's a lot of things in that direction that will come. Where money might come out. Wealth and wealth transfer might come out on the end, but it's not the initial intention. While the current token space and Ethereum and all of this, the initial intention is how I can make money, how I can make a token that somehow goes up in value? And I think that's the wrong attitude that doesn't really attract mainstream.
Then going back to the fashion industry and the potential for LUKSO to enter that space and really disrupt it. Do you think the advisers that are currently associated with LUKSO, who are very impressive and have, you know, are very well known, how big a role would these people be playing in guiding LUKSO into adoption within the fashion industry, and you know, sort of bridging this gap?
I mean, these advisers are advisers, you know, and obviously not team members. I think there's like a lot of misunderstanding of I'm not sure why is this that. But people see advisers somewhere, someone I think they're hired like full time people. That's obviously not the case. Advisers are advisers. These are people that are interested in our project that want to guide and help and be part of this because they like the idea and because they find it super cool. And for them, it's also a new endeavour because they come from a very traditional industry. And this whole technology angle and this blockchain angle for them is super fascinating. So it's in a way, actually a two way informing street now and informs both ways. And we are lucky that we have not only a great network, but we really get this recognition. As a technology project in that very traditional fashion space and things just came together, people have come towards us. Things happen that we meet the right people and they are really interested. It will probably be a very big cross informing. But at the same time, we can also now do a lot of cool things because we can, like, make our own brands. We can make our own creative output. That's actually led by industry leaders and by people who have been in the space and a long time to combine tradition with this really new tech based on open standards and actually defining new standards, which I think is what most of the other projects are missing. They simply just make a blockchain and give themselves a name and that's it. They're not really moving it forward on that ground level that is so necessary to make the user experience different and to allow an even larger, more flexible economy to come out of it.
Yes, I mean, it is very impressive, the vision that you're building. So I think there's a lot of potential. It will be very exciting to see what will come out of it over the next year or two. So we'll go into some more general questions and to give advice to some of our viewers and listeners. Who is someone that you look up to and what is it about that person inspires you?
I mean, I would say, like right off the bat, I look up to Vitalik as a leader because he has been at a very young age part of the extremely fast moving space, extremely. Successful projects over the years, and he's in a way almost like the old wizard of that that space in a group where he never has been taking predominantly strong sides or being like the dictator or a leader, he always has been that guy who watches what's going to happen and then gives his opinion without enforcing it upon people and he has been literally a blessing for the whole Ethereum project because he is that wise and knowledgeable and that humble in a way to so I mean, I would say that are really, really good properties to have, and he has shown them exceptionally well, even though on a personal level, he's probably more like the hard social person to talk to, on a community level he's extremely well spoken and does a great job.
And so going into sort of, I guess, key attributes to what would you consider the three major attributes that you contribute to, I guess the success thus far that you've achieved and to make such great progress within the Ethereum project and looking to make progress in the Lukso Project. What are three attributes you would contribute to the success? For example, maybe you're work ethic perhaps?
I think I mean, for me for example, when I'm doing something I'm not doing with the intention of, hey, this has to be successful and I want to have all the fame and all, you have to make me a lot of money I'm doing it. Instead it is does this make sense? Is this needed? Is there something I want to have? And honestly speaking, everything I build, I build literally mainly for me first. You know I want to have it. I want to have such a blockchain profile or I want to have that standard there because I want to use it for something. So I think a really good open source developer first does things for themselves because then he does it right and he does it with passion and with heart. And then he also makes sure that it's translatable and easy to use by others. And when it's the right thing, meaning when it's unbiased enough and done in such a way that it works for a lot of projects and a lot of people, and it's not like this completely custom thing that only works for one thing, then then we have a very high chance to create a good and large success. And so far that has worked for me quite often, starting with the content management system has a few hundred thousand downloads. That's very small compared to any of the other things. But after that, it's always followed the same baseline. And I did it for the same reasons.
And it turned out to be pretty successful. I think my inner wish was always I want to do things that are used by a lot of people and that improve the lives of a lot of people, even if it's just on a technical level or website or interface or whatnot. And so far, that has worked out quite a few times. And I happen to had a lot of influence in the Ethereum space on the way, how we interact with Ethereum and how to develop experiences. And some of the user experience and so on, so I guess that's also contributed to being at the right time, at the right place.
Yes, and so apart from the Blockchain space, are there any other industries that you're a particular interest for? For example, you mentioned augmented reality earlier in the interview. Why are those industries of particular interest to you and what industries, apart from Blockchain, do you think could have a major effect in the future? And how you're looking forward to seeing how they progress?
I mean, I think in general, we are living in extremely exciting times. I mean, we are for the first time living in times where there's a real space race with high technology where rockets land on their butts. You know, that's already cool. And we have electric cars. I drive a Tesla since many years. It's the future of driving. There's no doubt. I'm personally very excited about virtual reality because virtual reality is it's so mind blowing when you have experienced it and the immersion you can get and the sense of presence is unprecedented. There's nothing that gives us the same experience except doing the real thing. We are pretty far already with VR it's now becoming mainstream, this devices like the Oculus Quest 2 that literally allows anybody to have VR without having a beefy computer. And the amount of users coming into this space is massive.
I've been already using it for the last five years extensively as an exploration, really, because I want to know what is coming and how does it feel, how does it look like? And a lot of the things we are building has that future in mind because that future will come faster than we think. And it would be, in my opinion, more impactful than even the mobile phone is, because we have the ability to literally step into the monitor, into a completely alternate reality that is unlimited in size and unlimited in possibilities. And it can literally bring everybody on the whole world into one room if you want to go into one space, into one little village. It's this is beyond, you know, video conferencing or any of the other things we are using today. It's completely changing the game. It removes location as a limit or as limiting factor, which it would be massive, it is totally massive.
I guess that will play into LUKSO in the digital fashion as that continues to develop. You'll be looking to be there as the, you know, almost provider of one of the solutions to providing digital fashion for these augmented realities?
Yeah, I mean, LUKSO is meant to be the infrastructure, for example, for these creative new things, like the digital fashion that will have lives in virtual reality. I mean, you if you go to VR and if you go to different places, you want to bring your stuff, you want to own your stuff. And the stuff should be yours outside of any game, out of any platform, out of any computer or device. It should be just yours. And that's what LUKSO enabled. So I think one of the use cases of LUKSO in the early years will be really strongly this this VR wardrobe in a way that you have. And the other aspects might be your room or your avatar and other things. So, yeah, that's super exciting because individuality, especially when you're in a social VR space, that's the number one. You don't want to be the same guy like you and the other 10 guys in there. You want to look the way you want to look. And that's a challenging endeavour because. It's a lot of things that need to be standardized along the way to make this happen that haven't been standardized yet, especially the gaming industry and the 3D industry is very fragmented and siloed into this like three, four game engines. And there is some compatibility and so on. But the slow you know, they're not really in the opensource world yet, which is a bit sad. The Internet and everything with Web development is totally open source in the game world it's all about know if I make the game first and I get all the users and get all the money. So I don't share any of my code. That's why we have to reinvent physics systems like twenty thousand times because every game has to do it again. That's just not really cool, actually.
Yeah, well, that's great, thank you so much for coming on. I mean, if there's anything else you'd like to add, feel free.
I mean, maybe it's because of the timing right now, so the reverse lifestyle is ongoing until February 18th. If you want to have a stake in the LUKSO Network, then the time to get it is now, except you have to buy the markets and the market have a limited supply. So the supply isn't the reversible ICO. But you also have to keep in mind that there is a KYC you have to do. That takes a few days. So waiting until the last day will not work because that makes you put your Ether there and then you have to take it out again. But yeah, I mean, apart from that, I mean, I'm really looking forward to this to the future and I have a lot of visions of what to build and what to do. And our team is super excited about this. And we're building a lot of the infrastructure pieces right now. And I think once it comes all together, it will look very impressive.
Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to seeing how LUKSO develops over the coming future and I know the rest of the team is. Thank you very much Fabian for coming on.
I thank you for the opportunity.