THE STREET ANALYSTS

Hi, Bruce, thank you very much for taking the time to come on The Street Analysts for this interview. We're honoured to have you and are looking forwards to ask you some questions today.

 

Great to be here.

 

All right, so we'd like to begin sort of at the start and talk about what you were doing before you got involved in the blockchain space, could you talk to us a bit about your work at Accenture, Daimler and some other companies that you were working for before you sort of became aware of Blockchain?

 

So in 2013, I came into blockchain, so I'll talk about the 10 years before that and what I had been doing 10 years previous was building banks around the world for companies like Daimler and Volkswagen and a couple other companies. I was building special automotive banks that were expanding kind of financial choice in many emerging market countries where the banking system was not as mature or developed. And so I just helped build out banks for Mercedes, Volkswagen and a couple other companies, particularly in the automotive space. It was pretty fun. And but I'd been doing that for about over 10 years and I was about to do my 13th bank and I just didn't have the heart anymore. It didn't feel like I was going to be exploring more of the world and solving some of the problems facing the world. And that happened to be when I heard about Bitcoin around 2013. That was around the time of the Mt Gox hack.

 

There was a big explosion of Bitcoin price up to I think 1400 dollars. And I recalled that I'd heard about Bitcoin in around 2011. I'd been reading about it and someone told me about this digital money. Of course I didn't take very much notice of it, but within 2 years it was something that from a conceptual perspective, I realized that it could be used for a whole bunch more than just transferring money, that it can be used for transferring any type of value. And so when the opportunity came up, which is my co-founder Trent McConaghy, showing up in Berlin, Germany, I he said that he had an idea to put digital value on Bitcoin blockchain. And I thought about it and it aligned with a lot of what I had been thinking about wanting to do, which was get out of building banks and trying to see whether or not I could have a bigger impact on the world.

 

Yeah, that's very interesting and so sort of what was it that made you become aware of Bitcoin and then what was it about the sort of blockchain space and blockchain technology that really got your interest and really excited you?

 

So when when we got in in 2013, the narrative around Bitcoin was there's no intermediary and it was really hard to understand that concept for a lot of people. But that was the narrative. It was this anarchistic, anti-government, very kind of very strong perspective. But there was also this kind of Wild West aspect to it. And so in 2013, we started exploring the narrative that was a little more broad, which was just digital value, ownership of your content and understanding this stuff. This is when I think Andreas Antonopoulos has been starting just to talk a lot more in detail and working out multiple different narrative paths for Bitcoin. And that was really, from an intellectual perspective, a broad right at that time, we started to ask a lot of questions about what is value, what is money, why is there a central bank, what are all the different components of the economy that very, very few people know, spanning from banking to supply chain to the role of government and all these different concepts around money. And since then, we've moved much deeper into so many other areas. What's identity? What is credentials? What is digital value and digital scarcity? It's a pretty hot topic now with NFTs. And so in 2013, that was what was compelling because it was not only was intellectually exciting, but it was also the promise and the hope that we could maybe digitize more than just say movies and music and websites.

 

Yes, and sort of from becoming aware of this new technology and blockchain, what was the process for you to then come up with the idea and then subsequently launch ocean protocol?

 

So it's been a long path and it's been 7 years since we started along that journey. At the very beginning we started a company called The Scribe and that was trying to put digital collectibles on the blockchain, which we now today call non-fungible tokens, NFTs and crypto kitties' was the first. But you have a whole bunch of stuff happening right now in this space. And we started out in 2013. We are actually one of the very first venture backed projects that was non-financial.

 

So you had already had some venture backing for companies like Coinbase and others, mainly to do with exchanges, wallets and all this kind of stuff.

 

But at that time, there was almost no companies that were actually trying to explore blockchain use cases, lets just say that were slightly different. And I mean, six months in, it was clear we were a little bit early. I remember walking down Madison Avenue in New York City after coming from a meeting with, I think CBS or one of the big media agencies, or distributors and stuff. And just like this is a waste of time, the idea for creating a platform on blockchain for digital artists, people are still associating everything to do with Bitcoin, with criminals, drug dealers and the dark web and all that kind of stuff. So we pivoted into a big chain DB, which is a decentralized database. That was something the world had also never seen until then. And that's essentially just a database. But without any central server, it's not stored on the cloud necessarily like Amazon Cloud controls it, but it's actually has a consensus mechanism around it. So we built that. We actually had about 50 PoCs. It was fantastic. We learned a lot about how the world works from supply chain banking, how your food is produced, automotive stuff.

 

We experimented so much with so many different companies around the world on how you can use blockchain for storing data and making sure it's secure and making it accessible to multiple people without having any single party owning that data except for the person who actually owns the specific data record.

 

That went pretty good, but it was also too early. Loving Enterprises who went into blockchain, they worked out about a hundred different use cases.

 

Then the energy died down because there's a whole bunch of barriers that they met, legal barriers, regulatory barriers, coordination barriers because to do a blockchain it's a team sport and many of these companies either were too immature in terms of their understanding. They didn't have the executive support or it was just a heavy lift for a lot of these companies to set up that infrastructure to really believe in blockchain.

 

And Trent and I, we saw that and we said we've got to look at where does this take us? And in all of our experimentation, we realize that blockchain is the key to unlocking data, data with provenance, data where you know who the owner is, data that could be valuable for somebody. And then we said, who's that valuable for? And that's A.I. researchers, A.I. researchers, they can consume terabytes and exabytes of data. And we had been heading in, I think, into 2010 with a massive shortage of AI researchers and now as we're starting the 20's, there is no shortage of A.I. researchers and the limiting factor now is the actual amount of accessible data and even though data is now being created 10 times faster, than it was even 2 years ago, it's still not getting unlocked. And so in 2016, actually, Trent wrote a paper that was, hey, Blockchains one of the killer use cases for unlocking data because we can give people comfort and security that their data is safe and we can use the native rails of blockchain for transporting that value, either tokenized or other ways so that people can consume it using that blockchain trust in smart contracts. So that was ocean protocol 2016, we thought about it, I think 2017 we did our first proof of concept with Toyota and then late 2017 we said let's do it. We launched Ocean Protocol formally as a project. We've been going for three and a half years now.

 

Yes, and so could you sort of give someone who's never heard of Ocean Protocol before? Could you give a brief overview of what it is you're trying to do and also explain sort of what attracted you to almost try and unlock the value of data?

 

Sure, so Ocean Protocol, it allows people to buy data and allows people to share data. And it brings them together. The fundamental two questions that we realized we need to solve as we came down this path was how do you make people feel comfortable, safe and secure to share their data, just like Uber made it safe for you to get into a stranger's car or for you to let a stranger come into your car. How can we make that same sense of security and comfort for data sharing? The second challenge that we found when we were thinking about ocean protocol was if the data is available, what's it worth? Nobody knows actually the real value of it and the reason why is because there hasn't been a liquid market.

 

And so this is the reason why we thought ocean protocol could solve these problems, number one we knew that blockchain could solve the first aspect in terms of trust and stuff like that the second part we weren't so clear.

 

But in the meantime, we had actually working on a whole bunch of ideas, decentralized governance, automated market makers, bonding curves, all this sort of stuff. And while we've been building ocean protocol, that part of the equation has been worked on by a lot of people around the world. And now we have a mechanism for pricing the data. So that fundamentally is ocean protocol. It's a way for people to buy and sell data while giving the two kind of no non-negotiable. Number one is can can I feel safe sharing my data? And number two is what's my data worth? And now within ocean, we have the tools and the components that allow that both of those things to happen.

 

Yeah, sort of going on from that could you talk us through the 3 ways people can earn on data? I mean, you've got staking ocean on data sets, publishing and selling your own data or by building and then subsequently launching a market.

 

Yeah, I mean, those are three definitely ways that are available now, but what we see is we see kind of a complete data economy arising.

 

We know that there is a data economy that exists today. We call it kind of a shadow data economy because it's not really transparent. There's not a lot of people involved in it or the people who are involved. All that knowledge is kept inside. And just like what we've seen with bloggers, Twitter and all the content that's being generated online, there is a complete ecosystem that is undiscovered for the world. And we think that data is exciting. We think that data is something very interesting for a lot of people, especially with the awareness now of data privacy, the fact that companies are taking our data and using it for their means, not really giving us compensation. The fact that there's all of this data out there that really isn't being used, we think that that is something that a lot of people can feel passionate about and also start participating in. And our job is to provide those tools. And so not only can you of course, buy and sell data, not only can you stake and then you can even, like, launch your data off in what we call an IDO and we'll get to that later. But we think that there's other things that can be done. Like analytics on top of data like the morning stars or the messari's on top of data. You can have curation where people put ratings on it and they get rewarded for it. Maybe you have bundling of the data and you provide investment products. So the top 10 data sets that are coming from the UK all in one ETF that that can be bought and sold as an index fund.

 

There's a whole bunch of different creative ways that we can start considering using data because ocean protocol kind of sets that stake in the ground. But at the same time, we have this whole world called decentralised finance that's now being built up around financial any digital asset. And we are married very closely to the DEFI space so that when the data starts getting unlocked, it'll be very easy for them to take that next step and start financialising that data so that we have this true opportunity and access for anybody. You would actually, if I could just take a step out, you would actually said, why is this something that is what we want to do and I'd like to touch on that. Everybody viscerally feels that things are changing. And what I mean by that is automation, A.I. robotics, that taking away jobs in some ways and they're going to give jobs on the other side. But we actually don't know what those jobs are, even if they're going to be more plentiful and stuff. And so there's a lot of uncertainty. At the same time, the haves and the have nots, that whole divide is growing. It's very clear that the opportunities are not necessarily equal for everybody, even though you have information around the world for everybody. And I was seeing this 10, 15 years ago.

 

And for me, I had always kind of philosophically pondered what is it that you can give to every single human that you cannot take away, but allows them to earn something in the future when they have maybe a lot more leisure time or the jobs that they might have been able to do today, driving a truck, sewing, doing manual labour, all that sort of stuff. It's taken away by robots, taken away by driverless cars. It's taken away by all the things that are supposed to take away the drudgery from humanity. What is the one thing that we have? And that is our intellect. It's our judgment. It's the things that make us uniquely human. It's that supercomputer in our head. And for me, that was intellectual property, the creative ideas, as well as our data. And so that's where kind of the theory of ocean protocol and how kind of it relates to A.I. and blockchain and data meets kind of a moral compass. I think that ocean protocol is a vital part to help people to have kind of agency in a world where power and value can be distributed globally so that all 7.6 billion people, if they have a connection to the Internet, they're going to be able to find a way to add value.

 

Yeah, I mean, it's not a way that I personally looked Ocean Protocol. I mean, you really opened my eyes to how big it could become and hopefully does become. A big part of Ocean Protocol at the moment, are the ERC-20 Data tokens, which I believe each data service has its own data token. Could you sort of explain and talk about what this is?

 

Sure, the idea here is that just like you could tokenize a project or something, we want to actually take that down to a granular level.

 

So we've already seen tokenized art. That's something that's been happening for the last month and getting a ton of momentum before that there was individuals having a unique token like the Alex token or the whatever coin token. These are actually just kind of personal brands that that are ERC-20 tokens are tradable, viable, all that kind of stuff. And we said, is data something that you could tokenize? And that's where data tokens come from. And popping stack. If you look at the example of Amazon, what did they do that was truly innovative? Well, what they did is they saw a big box bookstore, 60,000 titles, and they said, look, the Internet is limitless. If we use the Internet as our registry and our library, we can have millions of books. There's no capacity constraints in a database. And so what they've done is they've taken five million books instead of the sixty thousand, and they've made that accessible. And turns out there's actually a lot of demand for the 60 thousand in one book and even the millionth book and the five millionth books. And what they've shown is that the long trail of books far exceeds that for sixty thousand that a normal big box bookstore can handle. And so that's what's the genius. It's that they made the cost of buying and getting that book, the friction so low that yes, of course, I'll go on Amazon and buy the book ranked number four million thirty six thousand because I want it. And normally in my local bookstore, whether there's a town of fifty thousand or a city of two million, it's not that book's not going to be in that bookstore. And so by reducing the friction so that that transaction can happen simply, easily and shows up at your front door.

 

Amazon has grown and innovated to the company they are today. Can you do that with data? Obviously, before blockchain, you couldn't. It's just way too expensive. I mean, anybody listening right now, how do you sell your personal data? I guess it's probably worth a thousand bucks if you're to sell your personal social data. Who do you sell it to? Nobody knows. How do you get paid? Do you set up a company? It's just mind boggling. And it's just not worth the time. But what if I said that ocean market gives you the chance that you could actually bundle that into your own data vault and you can sell it and it only costs you like five cents to put that into your data vault. And from then on, if somebody wants your data, they just pay you and they can access that. And so let's say you're getting ten bucks here, Twenty bucks there hundred bucks there. It only costs you the time plus about five cents of transaction fees to get that going. So in the past, if you were to look before the Internet and you wanted to be a publisher, you would have to have invested a couple hundred thousand dollars in computers and servers, in distribution channels. If you want to actually do a publication, a formal publication with respect and everything. That would cost you a couple hundred thousand dollars. Now, with the Internet 20 years later, how much does it cost for you to be a publisher? It costs you nothing you just go on medium. You start publishing your content all the time. You can generate a following subsect, start getting subscription, you have a business, think of a podcast. It's all there because the barrier to entry is so low.

 

And so the idea is that ocean protocol can actually be the engine that helps to power people selling their data. And it might not be individuals selling individual data it could be a data scientist who's collected a whole bunch of data. It could be an NGO who collected data related to the environment that is just sitting there. Large companies have tons of data where it's just designed to be locked up. What happens if we could turn an IT centre into a profit centre, a cost centre into a profit centre, these types of things?

 

And the idea there is that if we bring the cost of publishing that data and making it accessible and consumable to virtually zero, we're going to have a ton more data that becomes available.

 

And some of that a large portion of that is going to be valuable. And so that's the way that we think that we can help kickstart a data economy that's going to be huge. And the best, best part is we don't own it. Ocean protocol doesn't this these are smart contracts. Anybody can fork it, take it, use it for free. Our code is open source anyways. We're community funded and our goal in life or our greatest joy is that Ocean is used to power the data economy and Ocean itself gets nothing. The community gets a little cut for further development, but that's it. And we think that that's a fair deal.

 

Yes, and so the two users on any data marketplace with Ocean Protocol would be the date publisher and the date consumer, and you just sort of touched on it briefly, but could you give an idea of some real world examples of these two users in play? And also at the moment, which industries are really currently utilizing ocean protocol?

 

So, its like supply and demand, consumers, producers, it's the same story from the dawn of humanity, great, is it something that I have that you want and vice versa? And so that's obvious. The ocean market at a fundamental level is just bringing a buyer and seller together. The challenge, which could be more interesting, is what are the tools, the modules, the components, the features that make that transaction a higher probability event. What makes it so that that transaction is just bound to happen? So just another example: you know, back in the day, if you're in a city, let's say Austin, Texas, and it was raining outside you needed a taxi, well, you go to the nearest hotel, taxi stand is empty. What do you do? Chances of getting a taxi or just flying a taxi really, really hard. And so with Uber, that almost a zero percent chance of getting a taxi in the rain has now become, let's say, a one hundred percent chance. And so that's that's what we're trying to do, is to find out what are the tools, the features that we can build on top of ocean market, on top of the ocean from our contracts, working with the community, working with the buyers and sellers and building out all of those different features and components. We're hoping the community builds most of these things, by the way, so that the possibility of selling your data right now is almost zero, same as like getting a taxi at rush hour in Manhattan when it's raining is zero.

 

What are all the hundreds of thousand things that we're going to do to make it so that the chance of you selling your data in the future is 90 percent? Imagine a world where all your data is for sale and that there's a vibrant economy around it. That is actually the challenge that we have. So in terms of buying and producing data, right now, the people who are buying and producing data on the ocean market are people who are in the crypto space. They're looking for crypto data. They're looking for data about the actual data sets because they want to speculate on it. And that's a good first use case. And we want more data sets. We want people to know that they can come to the ocean market and find data sets that are interesting for their purposes so that the producers can earn something and they get even more incentive to keep doing this. I mean, that's the obvious, you're on the one yard line. You've got to just get over that to get a touchdown kind of thing. But conceptually, in the broadest picture, we there's a thousand different things that we're going to need to do for the community and the economy is going to need to do if we're going to turn that from a zero, probably chance of us selling our data today to a 90 plus percent chance tomorrow.

 

Yeah, and then obviously a big thing with data is privacy and security and so ocean protocol has compute-to-data and this allows for data to be utilised in science and technology whilst also ensuring privacy is maintained for owners.

 

Could you explain a bit about what this is and how it works to our readers?

 

The reality is that if you have a terabyte of data on your computer, you don't really want to fire it over the Internet, over the cables to somebody else into their data center. I mean, you've obviously lost the data at that stage. And so computer data acknowledges this, it acknowledges that any data has inertia. It doesn't want to move. It's like a couch potato, it just wants to stay where it is. So how do you get value out of that data when that is the reality? Nobody wants to share their data by moving it. And the answer, of course, is compute-to-data. Go where the data is, provide the services of computation, the algorithms, all that sort of stuff, and see whether or not you can get value out of it. But by just meeting the data owner on their terms that we can unlock more data and so that is in a nutshell, is compute-to-data as a start. I won't get into the technical stuff, but that's what it allows us to do so that you can trust that this set of algorithms will come to your data run and the only thing that gets taken or leaves after the algorithms run is a set of numbers. It's a set of numbers that is useful for data scientists. It's useless to you, but you know that that's the only thing leaving your computer and you know that your data has been safe. And if you do this across millions and billions of different data sets and you've unlocked that data for those algorithms to get some value, and that is fundamentally compute-to-data, and that's what we're trying to do.

 

Yeah, and linking with that is regulation and regulation regarding cryptocurrencies and regulation regarding data, both recently highly debated and highly controversial.

 

What has your experience been with ocean protocol, both with block chain and data privacy regulators? And could you explain a little bit about how ocean protocol complies with regulations such as the EUs GDPR

 

Sure, already in 2013 when we started with this guy who dealt with data rights, intellectual property rights, so this is something that we've been working on for seven years. So we're very familiar with this. And we started out talking about putting data on blockchain all sorts of it turns out that that's that's a crappy idea that you should never do. The way that you make it so people can feel comfortable. You comply with regulations and all that and you give people full control of their data. You give full control to them on how they get to share it, which is in line with European values and principles, was the regulation. And it also isn't antibusiness for America or Asia, where the business culture is more that the data is more free and available. This allows everybody to, of course, have the autonomy and the superiority over their data. And so ocean protocol respects all that so that you register your data, it's still on your computer and it's available in a major industry. People can find it in search it. They say I want to buy it under these conditions. It sees whether it matches under the conditions that you'd like to sell it, the answer's yes. You've already kind of given consent if the conditions are met and then the consumer can start using your data after they pay you. And then at the end of it, they haven't taken your data, they've gotten the value of it and they're off and running and they're happy. And so when you look at it from that perspective, it meets all the the requirements of what the governments are trying to do for their citizens, more so and better than any government, a centralized system, can do, because the actual rails of the technology aren't owned by anybody.

 

Right. The blockchain network isn't owned by anybody. So it's not a Google or Facebook can just unilaterally change the rules on you in mid-flight. And so this we're very hopeful that this helps people to adopt the technology or feel comfortable, at least to adopt the technology as it matures. In terms of the blockchain or the crypto regulations. Who knows what that is. But Ocean Protocol is just one project out of many. We think that we have a lot of promise. But I think that the regulations around crypto, treating it as an asset, treating it as a good currency, what have you. Ocean is, we're one of many swimming in the stream there. So I think the regulations that affect all crypto will affect us, of course, but there's not much we can do about that other than to have and be a positive example to the regulators, to the banks and stuff like that, that there are valid and very valuable use cases using crypto, where it's a native use case of the technology. And so you can't separate the technology from the cryptocurrency. And I think that many people in the world don't understand that yet. But if you do work in the crypto space, you know that that is a fundamental kind of design feature. And so we'll find a way to wrestle with all this somewhere in the future.

 

Yeah, and then sort of on that regulation thing, what is your personal opinion on the best way to have it pro crypto doing sort of to promote crypto out of this, perhaps shunned or looked down upon technology and things like this, because obviously I've seen on your website, it's very easy to learn about it, do you perhaps think that education is the best way for for adoption and pro blockchain regulation?

 

I mean, that's definitely a part of it, that's not actually what we're intending. I mean, of course, we want to educate people so they understand what we do. I think that the best way that we can get understanding is actually having applications that people want and use. And that's such a clear use case. We're seeing that a little bit with NFTs and that people already buy and sell digital art and now they actually can truly own them. And it's not some central company that owns the digital goods. And they're just kind of giving you, you know, whatever a GIF file or whatever you actually do, truly own this in a virtual and realistic way. These are use cases and the more of these use cases that come out that people can grasp and understand in a native manner the more the adoption is going to happen. But it goes in zigzags, right. It's not going to be all all green from from here out. And it's going to be ups and downs.

 

Yeah, and moving on to the significance of Ocean Protocol, obviously, you allow for data that had previously been inaccessible to now be available for data scientists and researchers. How significant do you think this will be in improving sort of results for A.I. algorithms by using almost these untouched inputs? And how significant in the long run do you think that what you are trying to build will have as an effect, both not only for A.I. algorithms and researchers, but for the world in general?

 

I'm very hopeful that there can be a positive impact, but I don't know that for sure.

 

What I do know without a doubt, is that we're probably unlocking one percent of the data that's being generated. And that is a travesty because right in front of us, in some server farms around the world. Ninety nine percent of the data is locked up. And in that data are solutions to millions of problems that people face, whether it's in companies or supply chains, health, the environment, anything you have, we have enough data to solve most of the problems facing us. What's lacking is, of course, the attention and the focus on that, but also, of course, the access to that data. And that data is there. We have it. I believe this, without a doubt. And so I think that looking at a positive future outcome. If we can unlock this data financialise in some way, but truly make it accessible so that the ownership is from the person producing it or the entity producing it so they can make money off of it, then we can make it available for the researchers. And then what are the possibilities? I mean, you can use the data to make it so that you solve climate change. Maybe you solve the health problems. I mean, this is a little bit idealistic, so I don't want to get airy fairy on this stuff. But you can solve a lot of challenges if you have the right data. If you think about how far we've already come with data, we can already predict things like hurricanes and weather disruptions much, much better than we could even 30 years ago. And it's noticeable. A.I. is built into almost everything now with voice recognition, driverless cars or stuff like that, I mean, it's a much better and different experience because the machines are doing so much more on our behalf because of the A.I. And so this is all based on data. So if you can unlock 99 parts more out of the 100 where the one has only been unlocked, I'm a firm believer that we have the intellect, we have the people and we as humans, we can make something out of the stuff.

 

We just have to make it available.

 

Yeah, I think it's really exciting what you guys are trying to do it looks optimistic in the future and I think, you know, in the long term, Ocean Protocol should have a very positive and long lasting impact. Moving on to some more general question about you personally. Could you discuss someone that you look up to and what is it about this person that inspires you?

 

Well, I mean, it's hard not to get into clichés but somebody like Elon Musk, who is an engineer at heart, and he puts his heart and soul into these ideas crazy as heck, and then he makes it happen. And so that type of fortitude, that type of discipline, that type of just I mean, going for it. I mean, how can you not admire that? You can imagine someone like that as being a person that we look back 50 years from now as being like the Thomas Jefferson of the 2020's and stuff like that. So, I mean, it might be a completely obvious answers for most listeners, but definitely relatable, I hope.

 

Yeah, and sort of linking on to that, what are three almost attributes you would contribute to your success thus far. Maybe your work ethic or your persistence to follow yourself and your ideas. What are these three attributes you would contribute to your success?

 

I don't like to really toot my own horn, but I do think I work hard. I do think I put in pretty long hours and hopefully that the hours have an aspect of competence behind them. So getting better over time in the areas that I am working on. And then the third piece, right so number 1 is work hard number 2 is try to get better at the way you're doing it with better processes, thinking and all the good stuff. And the third thing is humility and just accepting things for the way they are.

 

And as part of that, humility is understanding that we're all humans, we're all fighting our own struggles. So having that empathy for others, I hope that that is out of the three things that are a differentiating factor.

 

Yeah, and then going on to so apart from blockchain, are there any other industries that you have a particular interest in? I mean, maybe ask artificial intelligence? That seems a key part of Ocean Protocol, what other industries do you keep an eye on or are interested to follow developments in.

 

So I have thought about what comes after Blockchain, I've already been in the space seven years, it'll be a decade soon. Maybe I'll do two full decades in blockchain and then the technology will be rolled out and I'll be kind of a grey beard or what have you. So what comes after that? And it's obvious what that answer is. I think for anybody listening now, there is one challenge that we as humanity face, and that's the global warming climate crisis. And that's not just how do we take carbon out, it's how do we change agriculture? How do we reduce the energy consumption that we have to have or the green energy that can be produced? There's so many challenges that we face as humanity. And if I could as kind of whatever my swan song, start working on some of that stuff and make an impact on it in some way meaningfully on a global level, that would make me pretty happy because I think I mean, what else is there at the end of a career? But to do something for the next generations, right?

 

I mean, it's very inspiring and hopefully you do go on to assist in that in any way you can. Thank you very much for coming on. Do you have any additional sort of information that you want to share with our audience?

 

I mean, I'm sure there are some links that I can provide to you, but a place where you can go for questions, I mean, we're @oceanprotocol. The website is OceanProtocol.com. And we'd love to have you in our community to learn more, to contribute. And, yeah, it's it's a good welcoming community and I'm proud of what we've done. So feel free to join us.

 

Thanks, It's been a pleasure talking to you today.

 

Thank you. The pleasure is mine.